Listen to the interview here:
by Annalisa Nicastro
- IRWIN, the name of NSK, plays with the historical relationship between Slovenia and Germany. How do you perceive the cultural border between these two identities today? Does it remain a border or has it become a meeting point?
Dušan Mandić
1984 was the year of Orwell. At the same time, it was the year of the founding of NSK within the borders of the socialist federal state of Yugoslavia. Slovenia was just one part of a larger federation of national republics united in the Yugoslav state. It was a time when the state controlled artistic production through its institutions. It was also a time when the socialist government prohibited the use of the name of the music group Laibach.
The reaction to this ban was the founding of the IRWIN group and the adoption of a foreign language as a planned contradiction: the use of a foreign language to produce national art. A means of creating distance from the then undemocratic government.
Today, Slovenia is part of the European community along with Germany, Italy and the other 27 EU members. Today, IRWIN can establish itself in a completely different context. The Slovenian state does not restrict freedom of expression, as is the case in some other EU member states.
Borut Vogelnik
I do not believe that the term "play" is the most appropriate to describe such an incisive intervention in such a complex and delicate historical relationship between the two nations. In fact, the first to take this step, not without risk, was Laibach, who by appropriating the German name of Ljubljana initiated this process. NSK, short for Neue Slowenische Kunst, was modeled after that experience. The victory over the German army during World War II was the crucial achievement on which the legitimization of the socialist revolution and the authority of the Communist Party, which assumed control of power, was based.
As a consequence of both the atrocities that occurred during World War II and the need to maintain legitimacy, Germans and the German language were still demonized in the early 1980s, despite the fact that for two decades workers from Yugoslavia had been emigrating en masse to Germany in search of a better life. In a 1989 interview granted to Jürgen Harten, we responded to a question on a similar topic with these words, "... This does not mean that we should fall victim to the ghosts of those times."
The basic idea was to recognize that, beyond the conflicts that emerged during our complex coexistence, Slovenia has been an integral part of the geographical area influenced by German culture for more than a thousand years. Consequently, even if we wanted to, we could not escape our common history. It is precisely the German-speaking territory that, over the past three decades, has been the most active in organizing projects aimed at including artists from countries commonly referred to as Eastern European. I would like to emphasize the importance of the Kontakt project promoted by Erste Bank in Austria. This project has resulted in the largest collection of contemporary art in Eastern Europe. Significantly, it focuses not only on the collection of works, but also simultaneously supports the theory that accompanies them, thus opening up the possibility of organizing a structured view of the artistic production of the past 70 years throughout the territory. This will pose a significant challenge to art-historical narratives based on national identity. I sincerely hope for the best. In the end, it all depends on the ability of local institutions to establish autonomous and sustainable relationships with the international art world, at different levels of the art system, and on how the local public will welcome contemporary art production.
Andrej Savski
The term Neue Slowenische Kunst, later shortened to NSK, plays with paradox. The name translates as "new Slovenian art," and at the time we represented exactly that: new art and new artists from Slovenia. But why is it in German and not Slovenian? The use of the German language in the then Yugoslavia conveyed a deeply destabilizing message to the local public, especially to the government, whose authority was based on the anti-fascist struggle during World War II. It should be stressed that our interest was not in German language or culture per se, but specifically in the totalitarian tendencies of the time, which in Germany had taken the form of Nazi art (Nazi Kunst) and in Soviet Russia that of socialist realism. We incorporated elements of both in our works. This is certainly a provocation, but it also reflects the methods we tend to use frequently: a certain double entendre that I think has been understood (or at least noticed) internationally as a contemporary narrative discourse.
Looking back on it today, I wonder if it was ever really a limitation; perhaps, for us, it was always more of a meeting point. We had numerous exhibitions and collaborations, including two retrospectives in Germany: one after 20 years, at the Bethanien Haus in Berlin, and the other after 40 years, at the HMKV in Dortmund.
- Your artwork is often intertwined with historical memory and propaganda What do you think is the role of the artist in reinterpreting the past?
Dušan Mandić
Yes, we call our artistic credo the Retro Principle. It is our peculiar way of dealing with history, memory, propaganda, ideologies, philosophies, narratives, discourses...
I don't think there is a particularly defined role that an artist should take when dealing with the past. Fake news, for example, can be considered a very artistic approach...
At different points in history, different approaches have proved significant: in some cases, it has been moral responsibility and ethics that have prevailed, while in others it has been exactly the opposite-irresponsibility and radical denial of everything-that has played a key role in shaping the future.
- Your collective was born at a time of transition for Slovenia and post-socialist Europe. Slovenia was still part of Yugoslavia, a political reality that was later fragmented by new borders. How have you experienced the transformation of geopolitical and cultural borders in your artistic practice?
Borut Vogelnik
In 1983, when Irwin was founded, Yugoslavia was still socialist, and no one really believed that system would collapse within a short time. By the late 1980s, we had already started exhibiting regularly outside Yugoslavia, living for two years between Ljubljana and New York. This path led us, at the beginning of the 1990s, to a radical change: with the collapse of Yugoslavia and the transformation of the political system, the conditions for our work changed profoundly, prompting us to look toward the East. The reasons behind this decision were many. On the one hand, our interest in Eastern art had been there for some time, but only with the political changes did real cooperation become possible. On the other, during our stay in New York, we had met several Russian artists and curators, including Viktor Misiano, who later invited us to Moscow. However, the main reason was that the issues faced by Western artists at that time were profoundly different from those we were interested in. We wanted to address an audience that shared our experiences and issues. When we were invited to participate in Apt-Art International in 1992, we arrived in Moscow looking for interlocutors with whom we could shed light on the complexity of the epochal changes in which we had found ourselves immersed.
Andrej Savski
To describe precisely how external reality has shaped us and our art is not easy, but I can say that our early period was profoundly defined by the Was ist Kunst project. This is a series of paintings, still ongoing, made individually by each member of the group. Although we continue to work on this series, the geopolitical changes we experienced significantly influenced the development of the NSK State in Time project, which we started in the 1990s, and fueled our interest in Eastern Modernism. This interest led to the creation of the East Art Map project.
- Do you think the limits of Slovenia in the art world have been dialectical or quantitative in nature?
Dušan Mandić
After World War II, Slovenia was part of Yugoslavia. With independence in 1991, it became an independent state, and in 2004 it became a full member of the European Union. With a population of two million, Slovenia is one of the small economies. It has no tradition of collecting. There are a limited number of private galleries of modern and contemporary art, representing mainly domestic artists.
Borut Vogelnik
In the Irwin Group interviews, two interconnected reasons for founding NSK often emerge. We did not believe those who claimed that, in the early 1980s, the Slovenian, or more generally the Yugoslav, art system was part of the international art system. When asked why Slovenian artists so rarely participated in international exhibitions, and only because of state intervention, the typical answer was that Slovenia was simply too small.
We believed that the lack of communication between Slovenian and international art spaces could not be attributed solely to Slovenia's small size. After all, a significant number of artists who emigrated from Yugoslavia in the 1970s had managed to establish a dialogue with the international context. We believed that the difference between Yugoslav and international space was not quantitative, but dialectical, and that adaptation to the practices and principles of the former hindered communication with the latter.
We hoped that NSK could reach a critical audience that could, on the one hand, facilitate direct communication with spaces outside Slovenia and, on the other hand, allow open discussion with existing institutions in the Slovenian art field.
- Walls and borders, both physical and cultural: do they represent closure or openness for you?
Dušan Mandić
Art transcends borders, expanding them to the extremes of the possible. We are opposed to isolationism, opposed to a national art that ignores world culture and art. Art, by definition, is international.
Borut Vogelnik
For my part, it would be easier to answer this "binary" question if I asked how I use these terms when I speak. It seems obvious that in communication they generally represent closure, and I would use them that way. In Slovenian, we even use the word bordered instead of limited when referring, for example, to a mentally closed person. On the other hand, however, the word "paradise" is etymologically related to a walled enclosure, an isolated garden. Here we are confronted with the dialectic between security and freedom, which has taken on new relevance lately.
In some areas, the field of art is characterized by a dense web of criticism, interpretation, and so on, that assessments of whether something is art or not occur almost daily; consequently, any attempt by outsiders to intervene in the system is more or less illusory. However, there are long time periods in huge geographical territories that remain uncovered. If in the West it is difficult to find a single square meter that has not been organized in some way, then in the East there are vast expanses of "no man's land," which we have begun to see as a positive quality.
- The Concept of NSK State challenges the traditional idea of nation and borders. Your "stateless state" has created a supranational artistic identity, complete with embassies, passports and even an anthem. What is the line between artistic performance and true political provocation?
Borut Vogelnik
In our case, the boundary between artistic project and true political provocation coincided with the change of the political system in the early 1990s. NSK State in Time was conceived as a formalization of the Neue Slowenische Kunst collective, which was in open confrontation with existing institutions in the field of art in Slovenia. The earlier activities of the Laibach group laid the essential groundwork: by tackling topics that were previously taboo and using the method of hyper-identification, Laibach literally created a space for artistic work that was not only autonomous, but reaffirmed its autonomy on a daily basis while maintaining an ongoing conflict with the existing artistic apparatus.
The term "hegemonic temporary zone," formulated much later by Alexei Monroe, describes this situation more accurately than the term "autonomy." And the apparatus has not remained indifferent. The fact that such a large number of artists active in various spheres of art were organizing themselves into a complex social organism was of great interest in itself, disturbing the cultural and political scene to a certain extent and provoking reactions from official figures, curators, art historians and other artists.
There are two aspects to consider here: because of Slovenia's small size, it is much easier to reach even the highest officials than in most other countries; and just a few years earlier, in the 1970s, the political system of the time would probably have put a quick end to such activities. The situation was new for both sides, us and the political authorities. The latter were slowly losing control and had no clear perception of the limits they would not allow to be crossed at that time. Although in most cases no concrete action was taken, the authorities reacted by publicly condemning activities that were considered somehow inappropriate.
Today, with the change in the political system in the early 1990s, Slovenia has become similar to the rest of Europe. Today it would be very difficult, through artistic activities, to elicit such a wide reaction as those we were able to achieve with relative ease during the last phase of the socialist period.
- Is it possible to imagine a future where national borders will no longer be necessary?
Dušan Mandić
Of course, it is possible and necessary to think in this direction. Art, through the utopian vision of the avant-garde, has always been a few steps ahead of the real capabilities and desires of democratic states. The NSK State in Time represents a step toward the future, a world without state borders. The European Union is a big step in this direction.
Andrej Savski
Imagination is quite powerful, so yes, it is possible; we have the example of the EU. Remember when, not so long ago, we had to stop at borders, show passports and change currency?
However, it is true that we also have another memory: that of a regime without borders and with the same currency on the territory of Yugoslavia. All that has changed...
Borut Vogelnik
Well, I lived until the age of 33 in the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, a state that was not a nation-state, but a union of five relatively independent republics founded on national bases. This is why, in the 1990s, Yugoslavia was able to separate into six different nation-states. Being socialist and based on Marxist theory, the acceptance of internationalism and the concept of gradual dissolution of the state were taken for granted.
On the other hand, as young people, all members of Irwin were influenced by the counterculture of the 1960s and 1970s. One of the anthems of that period, which still resonates today, was John Lennon's Imagine, heavily influenced by Yoko Ono. It can be said that it was not difficult for us to imagine such a situation, even before Irwin and NSK were founded.
And today, surely, not just one, but several possibilities for futures in which borders will no longer exist can be imagined.
- Was ist Kunst? What is art today?
Dušan Mandić
Was ist Kunst This is a continuous series of artworks by the IRWIN group (1984-2025) that establishes communication between the five members of the collective through the process of retroprinciple. It is an eternal question and, at the same time, an answer. It is a path, not a goal. It is a working method that we have developed over the time the group has been active. It is an endless process in which, as an artist, you are never in the position of a winner.
WiK is an experiment in every aspect. At the same time, it represents an opportunity for individual members of the collective to work independently, following guidelines defined in the 1984 manifesto.
Borut Vogelnik
Was ist Kunst is the title of the project we first exhibited in 1985. From then until today, we continue to work on it. Over the decades, the potential dialectic of appropriation, which was the fundamental concept on which the project was based, has been overcome by the pure materiality of the production itself: the principle, the method, the rhythm of the work. This, over four decades, grew into a body of more than 500 paintings and about 300 drawings, closely interwoven and, as a rule, complex in both conception and realization.
For the five members of the Irwin group, the WiK series simultaneously represented an autonomous work space for each of us and, consequently, a space for mutual nonverbal communication, as well as a reservoir from which to draw ideas for other collective projects. Through the sale of the works in the WiK series, we were able to maintain independence from public funding sources and, consequently, autonomy in decision-making. Without this independence, I doubt that it would have been possible to keep such a large group together for so long.
The project is literally the embodiment of our group work. Today we intend to select 250 of the most representative works, the most successful installations, as well as installations of projects and performances stemming from WiK, organizing them into a structured whole with the help of invited writers and some existing texts. In this way, for the first time, we will make the whole project visible, not only to others, but also to ourselves.
Andrej Savski
Art is an ever-widening spectrum of approaches, discourses, concepts, behaviors, etc... to answer I will rely on Copilot, Microsoft's artificial intelligence tool:
"Today, art is a dynamic and evolving field that reflects the complexities of the modern world. Contemporary artists are pushing boundaries, mixing traditional techniques with cutting-edge technologies and addressing pressing social issues such as climate change, identity and social justice.
Major trends include:
- Digital art and new media: Artists use virtual reality, augmented reality and artificial intelligence to create immersive and interactive experiences.
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Today, art is not just about aesthetics; it is a powerful medium to tell stories, innovate and connect. What kind of art is most in tune with you?
